Earning a Living

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Re: hiring someone in france

it is so bl*****dy complicated.
even if i use cesu, its limited in number of hours + consecutive weeks + there's risk of the employer being sued for rights or something.

I wonder if there is an agent that takes a small %, and can handle all the admin for cesu.

I need to hire someone full time, for 3 months. An artisan would be around 5000EUR a month (I get day rate quotes of 200/250 day).
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Re: hiring someone in france

Yet another spanner for your works. If you're talking about over summer, you may well find that you can't find anyone prepared to work those 3 months. Just as all French people lunch at the same time, they all tend to holiday at the same time and the received wisdom is that If you want stuff doing it won't get done in July or August. Just saying.
Don't want to end up a cartoon in a cartoon graveyard.
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Re: hiring someone in france

It very much depends on what you want the labour for as well as the idea of a Jack of all trades doesn’t exist in France whatever you might have seen on UK TV programmes. If it’s renovation you could employ a maître d’ouvre to organise the workmen but you’re not going to find one person who will fix the leaking roof, cut the grass, fix an oil leak on the car and do a bit of shopping.
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Re: hiring someone in france

You're quite right, idun...

There is nothing stopping a non-resident employing someone and paying them through the CES.
You set it up through the URSSAF website, and then each month declare the hours the person has worked and how much you have paid. They get the money, and URSSAF take a further sum (almost the same amount again!) for your employee's cotisations.
BUT - unlike permanent French residents - you can't offset any of the extra amount against your income tax.
(Well, it occurs to me that if you DID have any income from letting a gite, say, then maybe you could offset some of it; but I didn't, so I didn't need to go into that.)

I had an occasional gardener whom I paid to cut the grass in my absence. I wanted to be quite sure that nothing was going to come back on me if he should cut his foot off with my mower etc, so although it was expensive, it did give me peace of mind.

EDIT
Only just seen page 2 of this thread...
Yes, I am sure the number of hours a week a CES can cover is limited. It's not designed for full-time work. Just for a few hours ironing, piano-teaching, gardening, etc in your own home using your own equipment/materials.


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Re: hiring someone in france

At the end of the day - workers have rights in France, more so than in the UK. If you want someone to work full time for you for 3 months, then you have to respect those rights.
If there were loopholes in the law that offered an easy way round paying their dues, then lots of employers would take the loophole to save money at the worker's expense. But in fact, French employment law is pretty watertight, they take workers' rights seriously here.
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Re: hiring someone in france

Would that that was exactly true Eurotrash, I know of one big UK company, that works a loophole and gets away with paying it's staff peanuts whilst they are working in France. And they have two sets of books, as seen by someone I know who took such a job.


When I mentioned this once, with far more detail, quite a few told me that that was 'quite normal'. It isn't but that doesn't stop it existing.



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Re: hiring someone in france

Well you can't stop people ignoring the rules if they want to take their chances.

Salaried workers who are employed to work in France have to be declared in advance to the French authorities via SIPSI, and AFAIK there is no loophole apart from that up to very recently this wasn't policed. They have to be paid French minimum wage and their employment contracts and working conditions have to comply with French labour law. If they have S1s then their social security/pension etc contributions continue to be paid in the UK so that is a saving, but if they don't have S1s then the employer has to contribute in France.

UK companies have been getting away with it for years by simply ignoring the requirements, but as of 2018 France started tightening up on this. I have a couple of clients at the moment who are being investigated by DIRECCTE and are appealing against the fines purely on the grounds that they can't pay them. The fine for each contravention is around 1,500 euros and there are separate fines for failing to declare a worker on SIPSI, failing to pay minimum wage/union rates, failing to issue a French payslip, failing to have a contract translated into French, failure to record working hours, exceeding permitted weekly working hours, etc etc etc; multiplied by the number of workers, multiplied by the number of contracts each worker has been on, and if like my clients you've been employing dozens of workers for years in blissful ignorance of the rules, the potential fines get up to millions of euros in no time.

https://www.sipsi.travail.gouv.fr/SipsiCasFo/login?service=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sipsi.travail.gouv.fr%2FSipsiFO
"All employers based outside France with the intention of providing services in France must submit a prior declaration of posting of its workers to the labour inspectorate branch of the place where the service is to be provided, before the posting gets underway."
Doesn't leave much of a loophole, does it.
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Re: hiring someone in france

It's general diy. Gardening work, moving bricks, a bit of digging, a bit moving wood. Just general DIY work. Some people want to work in summer, some dont. I think this direction is dead, since cesu is limited + risky with rights.
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