French Language

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Re: Can one of the French people

 You can call me Betty wrote:
 5-element wrote:
As for "la Saint Jean", "la Saint-Glinglin", etc, I think the feminine article refers to "la fête de..." which is left out as a shortcut - so instead of saying "la fête de la Saint Jean", you simply say "la Saint Jean".


But they don't, 5-E, that's what is so odd. If anything, they leave out the first "La", so that the signs and fliers often read "Fete de la St Louis"


I've never really wondered about it, but, like 5-E, I've always assumed it referred to "la fête de..."
On signs and such-likes, the article is rarely used: "Kermesse de printemps", "Marché d"automne ", "Repas de Noël"...


Clair
En Deuil - 8 Nov. 16

Share your knowledge. It is a way to achieve immortality.
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Re: Can one of the French people

But Clair, that doesn't help me with Alexandre and his books.   Big Smile [:D]

Ce sont les livres d'Alexandre ?

or

Ce sont les livres de Alexandre ?

I still believe the second is correct (no d' in front of a nom propre).

 

A song for Idun   Smile [:)]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYvRp8VVxNU


Animal Aid Saint Aubin

"Saving the life of one animal may not change the world, but the world will surely change for that one animal"

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Re: Can one of the French people

Well all 'this' stuff, just again proves to me that french is not a language for the peuple, but for the intellos. That all french kids have to try and understand all this and if they haven't and have got much of it wrong, will penalise them for the whole of their lives and interfere with careers. Because the truth is that some of us are better at say sums and other things, than 'this'.

And as has been pointed out, french journalists who should know better, still make mistakes. And I am, as I have been for many years, singularly unimpressed with all 'this'. There is little egalité if part of the population are unable to get to grips with the complex grammaire of their own language.

Brings to mind a very good friend of mine (not french), internationally renowned in their field, and their written english is often iffy, because in spite of a brilliant brain, are probably a little dyslexic. The good thing is that these days, their english mistakes are picked up on spell check. I often wonder how they would have faired in french education. I do know that their moyenne would have been low.

 

 


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Re: Can one of the French people

 Christine Animal wrote:
Ce sont les livres d'Alexandre ?
or
Ce sont les livres de Alexandre ?

I still believe the second is correct (no d' in front of a nom propre).

no d' in front of a nom propre
Never heard of thatSmile [:)]

I'd say the first is correct.

The usual grammar rule applies: On fait normalement l'élision devant un nom propre s'il commence par une voyelle ou un h muet.

Le gâteau d'Anne; le fils d'Hélène.



Clair
En Deuil - 8 Nov. 16

Share your knowledge. It is a way to achieve immortality.
Dalai Lama


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Re: Can one of the French people

Trouble is, Idun, and I don't mean this unkindly, for I am all in favour of more grammar being taught, and we Brits have been very remiss when it comes to imparting the complexities of our own language to our own children...BUT..

My own opinion, for which I take full responsibility and am happy to be disagreed with (but will not be shaken) is that France and its education system seem to start from the general premise that French IS difficult, complex and requires one's full and undivided attention in order to grasp the basics, let alone the more involved aspects of the language.

As a non-native speaker, I've told people a few times that by the simple expedient of learning, parrot fashion, how to conjugate just 4 verbs: etre, avoir, aller and faire, you can soon be halfway to holding conversations in the present, future and past tenses. Verb agreements only become critical when reading and writing, even most French people neatly sidestep (or incorrectly use) the subjunctive, the Past Historic tense is only for the literati, and the rest is vocabulary. Most native French speakers take as many massive liberties with their language as do native English speakers, so any rules are at the mercy of the speaker's interpretation. Yes, to be fully-functional in any language you need to learn to read and write it, and it helps if you do the latter correctly. However, visit any French forum and you will see that there are a staggering number of French people who haven't quite reached that goal either, and, just like Anglophone forums, it's rude to point and say "look at the dunce" because they can't write like Voltaire.

I may have mentioned, here or elsewhere, that a couple of years ago our local Mairie had an expo on the school of bygone days, and on a hot August Saturday I was coerced into popping along to the Salle in the Mairie to have a go at a "dictee". Firstly, having assumed I'd be one of a handful of people including my friend Denise (92) who'd invited me, I was stunned to find myself on the back row of a roomful of some thirty or more souls, aged from pre-teen to Denise's age. Secondly, I was surprised at how seriously they all took it (and how desperate they were to see how I'd done!) and finally, I was baffled by the explanations being given by the ex-teacher who was acting as our instituteur for the purposes of this re-enactment. I made one mistake. I made it 3 times, and I kicked myself afterwards because it had been the result of some self-doubt. However, I've been learning French for some 45 years now, and I fessed up to the fact, in front of an audience, that I had no idea what they were on about when they started prattling on about "verbs of the first group" (I was exaggerating a bit, as I had some, but only a vague idea). This gave several people, including the teacher, an attack of the vapours, not least because I appeared to be able to make a reasonable fist of the task without this essential knowledge. I upset a fair few people by out-performing them, and got a sticker to say I'd done very well. All this without having had the benefit of spending my formative years being brainwashed into believing that what I'd learned was really, really difficult.

Don't want to end up a cartoon in a cartoon graveyard.
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Re: Can one of the French people

 Clair wrote:
 Christine Animal wrote:
Ce sont les livres d'Alexandre ?
or
Ce sont les livres de Alexandre ?

I still believe the second is correct (no d' in front of a nom propre).

no d' in front of a nom propre
Never heard of thatSmile [:)]

I'd say the first is correct.

The usual grammar rule applies: On fait normalement l'élision devant un nom propre s'il commence par une voyelle ou un h muet.

Le gâteau d'Anne; le fils d'Hélène.


Thank you Clair.  But it does look as if it's not always so clear and a subject for discussion.  I was not the original poster on this link, but they have the same query:

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2047436&langid=6

 


Animal Aid Saint Aubin

"Saving the life of one animal may not change the world, but the world will surely change for that one animal"

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Re: Can one of the French people

 Clair wrote:
 sweet 17 wrote:
I'm going to stick my neck out and say that "délivré" refers to les policiers and that the sentence is OK.
In your example, Christine, the subject is "la lettre" and not "je" and therefore you need reçue.


Dear Sweet, you've just lost your head!

I'm with the other French natives! Big Smile [:D]


In Christine's example ("la lettre que j'ai reçue..."), je is the subject and lettre is the complément d'objet.

If you were to say "La lettre que Christine a reçue...", it is clear that Christine (sujet) has received (verbe) a letter (complément d'objet).
(and the fact that letter cannot receive anything...)

Expanding further, in both sentences above, que represents the letter and the rule used here is:
Le participe passé employé avec avoir s’accorde avec le complément d’objet direct quand celui-ci est placé avant le verbe.



Yeah, yeah, Clair, I remember it now......too late!Sad [:(]

The Proper Noun thing, Christine, is as explained by Clair.  Otherwise, how can you have Rillettes  DU Mans?

En plus, I am NOT going into the rule that says Où reprend un complément de lieu ou de temps.

"Le lieu", no problem, Le pays ou je suis née est un petit pays

BUT, I have to remember for "de temps" :  Midi, c'est l'heure où les français prennent leur déjeuner Geeked [geek]

 

 


Apprendre une langue, c'est faire un voyage différent chaque jour.
from Fle pour les curieux
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Re: Can one of the French people

"The Proper Noun thing, Christine, is as explained by Clair.  Otherwise, how can you have Rillettes  DU Mans?"

Err, have you been with those policiers again Sweets ?  The subject was proper nouns starting with a vowel and whether to put an apostrophe or not.

 


Animal Aid Saint Aubin

"Saving the life of one animal may not change the world, but the world will surely change for that one animal"

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