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Re: The blocade season has started

https://www.french-property.com/news/french_property_market/agriculture_farmland_prices_2016/

If somebody doesn't want to continue farming then they can put it on the market to sell or rent it out to tenant farmers perhaps.

Its a bit like inheriting a house but with more perks, As I said with property and with a job thrown in - with a 9% overall unemployment rate and more in the countryside that can't be bad. Probably why so many don't move on.

I dont think farmers will rush to show you their cash btw.

NB in terms of your oxymoron - I'm sure there would be lots of sympathetic bank managers if the client had substantial capital - that is how the western world operates.

My name is Richard , not Dick or any variant.
Dick is a crude name for a functional organ that is used as a derogatory name. Any reference to me as Dick will be met with equivalent response. Strange that it cant be policed better.
ex Consultant NHS


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Re: The blocade season has started

I don't even know why I'm answering this, but anyway. What your link states is that 20% of the 2% (or 0.4% , if you prefer) of agricultural land that changes hands goes to non-agricultural buyers. So 1.6% of France's total agricultural land changes hands among farmers each year.
Why don't people move on? To do what? If you've been driving a tractor since you could reach the pedals, there aren't a million job opportunities, least of all when there's high unemployment and your only experience and qualifications are a lifetime (literally) in agriculture.
If you inherit a house, you can choose to live in it or sell it or rent it. If you have farmland, you can choose to sell it or rent it, but if you can't easily do either, and you don't have another income stream, what are you supposed to do? As you point out, with 9% unemployment.....
As for sitting on a million pound/euros worth of land....well, convert that into cash when you're 40 and unemployed, subtract the taxes and living costs, budget for the fact that you're a family of four and you've just kissed your pension goodbye, and suddenly a million doesn't really seem that great. In fact, taking no account of taxes, inflation or other factors, that could mean an annual salary of under €4K a year above SMIC. Plus, unless you keep the farmhouse (and opt to live in the midst of a farm that now isn't yours) you'll also need to move house.
As it happens, I have very close friends who are farmers, both in France and the U.K. Close enough to know how hard they work, and that they aren't especially well off.
Don't want to end up a cartoon in a cartoon graveyard.
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Re: The blocade season has started

You make my point, I think.

Better life than being without work.

Better life than without any capital/possessions.

You live on another planet if you think that 1 million euros plus + house + job isn't that great a start.,

I hope I have taught my kids to look after themselves and not rely on any inheritance. If that means moving area/country then go for it. Working hard isn't always about driving a tractor all day. In fact that is rather easy compared to actual manual labour. I've sort of done both ( the manual labour for sort of and the tractor driving was very enjoyable and not hard work at all).

So - why does land pass from generation to generation and farmers continue farming if its that bad. You do answer the question - it aint that bad! Indeed its much better than those with no silver spoon.

NB Where on earth did I say not to do any more work for the rest of the inheritors life!

NB dont know about France but no inheritance tax is payable in the UK - I know that from my relatives and certain accountants.

NB 2% of agricultural land does changes hands - period. I can quote maths too! The fact that 0.4% goes to speculators is somewhat irrelevant. The fact that speculators leave the land fallow just means that they cannot claim any government subsidy - please dont get me started on CAP!!!! The inheritor made good by going to the city can well be one of these speculators if he/she so chooses.

Nb for CAP please see previous threads - I ain't going there again.
My name is Richard , not Dick or any variant.
Dick is a crude name for a functional organ that is used as a derogatory name. Any reference to me as Dick will be met with equivalent response. Strange that it cant be policed better.
ex Consultant NHS


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Re: The blocade season has started

And note the study uses changes hands rather than is sold. So Betty's 1.6% movements within the agricultural industry includes those retiring and those who die in service. That is probably most of the changing hands.

Richard
if this farming malarkey were so wonderfully profitable why have the investment firms in France largely ignored it.* I say largely because I do know that some areas of Northern France have come to their attention, as have a number of better known vineyards in the Bordeaux area.

* part of the answer might lie in the number of departements where land values have fallen according to your link. Another by the stated growth rates over 20 years - somewhat better than a bank but only somewhat.

Our commune is largely agricultural with few being employed as agricultural workers. The majority are therefore farms owned and run by the family alone. The average household income for our commune is around €8500. Land prices dropped by 7% in 2016 in the Ardeche. Here at least it is not a money making exercise to be a farmer.
Andy

A European Rahinja.
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Re: The blocade season has started

Andy

Yes people retire or die and pass on their wealth. Fact remains that people hang on to their land like grim death!!

Investment firms - very interested in large farming enterprises. 600+ acres should be profitable enough.

If not employed as agricultural workers then they aint farmers or have so little land that they can't expect to make a living from it.. 8,500 does seem low and probably reflects the unemployment situation in a poor rural region rather than the farming industry per se. Dont want to get into CAP but funds do not go to small "farmers" who own very little land.

In your region I suspect its not poor farmers, but poor unemployed who have no hope of jobs and rely on social payments.

Perhaps its a downward spiral but should those wanting more and with uneconomic land perhaps sell up and move elsewhere.


WB - only just seen your post on review. From my posts perhaps you will note that we are actually in agreement for those farmers owning the land. For tenant farmers they must grab as much land as possible to make it worthwhile and presumably do it as a job and, dare I say, because its better than any alternative. Being cynical, dont most jobs become routine and not what you originally expected or hoped for.
My name is Richard , not Dick or any variant.
Dick is a crude name for a functional organ that is used as a derogatory name. Any reference to me as Dick will be met with equivalent response. Strange that it cant be policed better.
ex Consultant NHS


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Re: The blocade season has started

Relatively few unemployed here Richard - certainly not the 9% national average. We do however have a relatively large number of retirees - many living from the agricultural pension that is 4/5 of not a lot (other 4/5 phrases are available).

The reason that people here stay in farming is however to avoid becoming a part of that unemployed group, because you are right, in such communities there is little else to do -
a few artisan building trades with their one or two (often casual) workers.
A couple of mechanics to mend the agricultural kit.
The usual professionals - vet, doctor, nurse etc.
Plus a few shop keepers and their employees.

So if you want to stay here you probably stay in farming, otherwise it's a move to the big city.
Andy

A European Rahinja.
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Re: The blocade season has started

Richard:
NB (as you seem to pepper your posts with it) inheritance tax? Who mentioned this? (Apart from you)? If you sell land, however, and suddenly come into a large sum of money....it isn't tax free, is it? And if you sell all your land for the millions that you earlier suggested, there could be the little matter of ISF.
Andy makes the valid points. People stay in farming because they have to, not out of some perverse sense of loyalty or the joy of farming. The value of their land is academic. They're not going to be able to sell at the drop of a hat and sit pretty on the money.
No, you didn't say people who sell up would never have to work again. But I pointed out that, almost inevitably they wouldn't be able to, given that they haven't the skills to step from farming to most other careers. Again, Andy confirms my point.
Try saying that driving a tractor is "enjoyable" when you've been doing it for 17 hours a day for a couple of weeks and when you haven't had a holiday for a few years because there's nobody to look after your cows, let alone your land. Imagine sitting down to dinner and a couple of hours of relaxation before bed, when your phone rings and it's someone telling you that your cows, on a parcel of your land 25km away, have got loose and you have to go and sort it out, or getting up night after night to attend to cows that are calving. Try spending a few weeks harvesting spuds, then hand sorting and bagging them, then waiting up until silly o'clock (or being awakened at dawn) for the lorry driver from Poland who's been sent to collect them for export, all for the princely sum (to you) of 14 cents a kilo. That's the rate as at last week, and this is a good year, price wise. I've known it to be half that.
But hey, it's all good. Anyone in farming can just pack it all in, sell the farm and live on the millions it makes. A bit like saying that if your house is worth millions, you can sell it and live in a tent. Anyone can do it. Farming? Piece of cake. And I'm pretty sure that all the farmers I know have taught their children independence too. Not to mention work ethic. I expect you've seen "Être et Avoir" - but if not, take a look at it from the point of view of how it documents the life of farming children in a rural community, then maybe question whether a kid in primary school who spends most of his or her non-school time working on a farm is thinking "one day, this will all be mine" in the same way that a Trustafarian whose daddy has just paid for his round-the-world gap year might do. I doubt it.
Don't want to end up a cartoon in a cartoon graveyard.
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Re: The blocade season has started

I think somebody has been watching too much Emmerdale or listening to the Archers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JH7X-yA3OBM

There are lots of people from farming stock who go on to have fine upstanding professional careers. I hope you aren't classifying farmers and their offspring as somehow less able.

In terms of tractor driving, its a world apart from the hassle of driving lorries on the roads of today.
My name is Richard , not Dick or any variant.
Dick is a crude name for a functional organ that is used as a derogatory name. Any reference to me as Dick will be met with equivalent response. Strange that it cant be policed better.
ex Consultant NHS


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