Finding/Owning French Property

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Re: This is one for ablf

<BLOCKQUOTE><table width="85%"><tr><td class="txt4"><img src="/forums/completefrance-forums/cs/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif">&nbsp;<strong>alittlebitfrench wrote:</strong></td></tr><tr><td class="quoteTable"><table width="100%"><tr><td width="100%" valign="top" class="txt4">You talking to me Brit (imagine a Robert De Niro accent there) you talking to me ???

Or Idun ?</td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you rant? I missed that.
You were posting as I was typing so it wasn’t you.
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Re: This is one for ablf

Andy, you make a good point...up to a point.
In France, our "village" (for village it is, although much bigger than many) is growing exponentially. It used to have a population of about 1500, but I suspect it's much more now, as new people seem to be moving in all the time. Mind you, we are only about 15 minutes from a largish town in one direction, and 25 minutes from another.
However, the village isn't on a main road...you have to want to go there or have a reason to do so. Thus, the local commences serve the villagers and no-one else. I've seen in the village magazine the scale of the subsidies given to the businesses owned by the commune...the tabac, boulangerie and bar/hotel...which are pretty substantial. There's also a Co-op which moved into bigger, swnakier premises built by the commune a number of years back, and a brand new pharmacie replacing the older, perfectly serviceable one for which, apparently, the rent was getting a bit high.
Twice a week, a pizza van used to come. People would queue. Then another pizza van came on two different days. And now an interiors company went bust and a pizzeria has opened. So I'm guessing I live in the official pizza capital of the Charente Maritime.
On the one hand, it seems to be the British, Dutch and German immigrants who keep the bar, tabac and (to a lesser extent) pharmacie going. Plenty of French locals used the first pizza van, but I'm guessing that with two vans plus a restaurant the desire for daily pizza might be waning. The restaurant has staggered its days off with the restaurant in the village centre in an effort not to directly compete. I've only been there once and it was empty apart from non-French.
Yes, there's a lot to be said for the ageing Brits (and other nationalities) who live in the village, because I see first-hand that they're keeping lots of local businesses afloat. I was, however, aghast to learn that a friend who had an operation was ambulanced to Bordeaux, operated on, transferred back to the local hospital, then ambulanced BACK to Bordeaux...to have his stitches removed. And then returned to the hospital from whence he had come. Friends regale me with tales of their wonderful treatment in France (when they're not telling me that they've changed doctors because they have had misdiagnosed cancer from the local one, or that, as the surgery is a doctor short, they have to wait days for an appointment and hours once they arrive for it.)
Many of my friends in the village are now well into their 70's and I would be hard pressed to make up an entire, fully operating human being from the sum of their working body parts. They're keeping the doctor, hospital and local nurses, physios etc., on speed dial and they're all on first name terms with all of them.
So, yes, they're helping to stop the local economy from flatlining (in terms of using the shops, etc., but they're definitely causing a lot of extra strain on medical resources in the area. They think they're getting wonderful service and treatment because they see quantity, not quality, as an indication. And they're a drain on a scarce and costly resource.
I'm not for one minute suggesting that they aren't entitled to receive treatment, just that their meagre contribution to the local economy is certainly eclipsed by the cost (to whichever government foots the bill) of their medical care. And if that's the UK eventually, happy days. But it's not just the money that's important, it's the time and resources being taken up by these people which is, I am pretty sure, disproportionately high compared to the rest of the village's population.

Don't want to end up a cartoon in a cartoon graveyard.
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Re: This is one for ablf

 andyh4 wrote:
..................... the mobility that railways brought to the population as a whole contributed greatly to the end of the village idiot.  ................


Obviously the railways reached some areas much later than others..........

On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.

H. L. Mencken 1880 - 1956

Some may not like his views, but what a prediction!
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Re: This is one for ablf

NoMoss

And in our case the railway never got within 10km - and it shows. 3 surnames predominate - in local politics, in local clubs and societies and in names on the war memorial One of those I believe were late comers having arrived from the Sardinian empire when Savoie was ceded to France in the 19th Century.

Betty
what you describe sounds like progress - whether it is good progress or bad progress only time will tell. If the population is expanding as you suggest then it suggests one of two things:

A lot of new housing is being built to accommodate these extra people
You had a lot of unused property in the past that is now being brought back into productive use.

You talk of older people being a burden on resources. Is that your prejudice or have you proof that resources for locals are being denied them because the outsiders are taking them?

Extra people certainly mean more resources are needed, but that can work both ways. It can put a strain on resources and it can mean that resources that might have been put under threat are now fully utilised and threats of closure are removed.

Compare and contrast:
Back in the UK we were 45 minutes from a major hospital. The next village had a cottage hospital. It was deemed inefficient and under utilised and consequently closed. Then they built a new housing estate in our village but too late. The first medical resource beyond the GP was 45 minutes away.

Here in France as a wrote earlier our local hospital has been/is being expanded to meet the local needs. For major issues however we are still 50 minutes away from a major hospital. the difference being that the local hospital can make an assessment about whether you need to make that journey.



In all of this it is also worth remembering when we are being critical of individuals who are going to consume resource, that that, in all probability, be the case whether they are in deepest France or back in their home country or home city. The resource would likely be consumed anyway with perhaps the exception of transportation to hospital, where, because of the lower population density of France, distances are likely to be longer. But use of doctors, nurses, technical resources and medications would likely be the same. If referring to ex-UK residents then (given the recent news articles and posts here) it might be advantageous that these people are in France and not taking up more NHS resource directly.

Andy

A European Rahinja.
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Re: This is one for ablf

Andy...you've just made my morning, if not my entire week. "You talk of older people being a burden on resources. Is that your prejudice.......?"

Well, given my age (21, obviously) I'm in no position to be prejudiced against older people.....

And resources? Well, I don't think the resource would be consume irrespective of country. Simply because if these people were in the UK they wouldn't get someone coming round to their house daily to change a dressing, or administer an injection or whatever. That's human resource that could be deployed elsewhere. They wouldn't be sent to some re-education centre for 3 or 4 weeks after surgery or illness, they'd be sent home. That's resource that's being taken up.

I'm not convinced, entirely, that increased population and improved resources to hand in hand. I see a lot of under-utilised resources - our spiffy new all-singing, all-dancing gendarmerie (closed for all but two half-days per week) is a case in point.

My point is/was that resources are being provided (or subsidised) on behalf of the indigenous population, but were it not for the foreigners,they'd be grossly under-utilised ( and in some cases, they are anyway) whereas services such as medical care are under strain.
Don't want to end up a cartoon in a cartoon graveyard.
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Re: This is one for ablf

Andy...you've just made my morning, if not my entire week. "You talk of older people being a burden on resources. Is that your prejudice.......?"

Well, given my age (21, obviously) I'm in no position to be prejudiced against older people.....

And resources? Well, I don't think the resource would be consume irrespective of country. Simply because if these people were in the UK they wouldn't get someone coming round to their house daily to change a dressing, or administer an injection or whatever. That's human resource that could be deployed elsewhere. They wouldn't be sent to some re-education centre for 3 or 4 weeks after surgery or illness, they'd be sent home. That's resource that's being taken up.

I'm not convinced, entirely, that increased population and improved resources to hand in hand. I see a lot of under-utilised resources - our spiffy new all-singing, all-dancing gendarmerie (closed for all but two half-days per week) is a case in point.

My point is/was that resources are being provided (or subsidised) on behalf of the indigenous population, but were it not for the foreigners,they'd be grossly under-utilised ( and in some cases, they are anyway) whereas services such as medical care are under strain.
Don't want to end up a cartoon in a cartoon graveyard.
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Re: This is one for ablf

Betty
you look at this (not unsurprisingly) from a very Anglo centric viewpoint driven by accountants whose sole purpose is to look at every problem from the start point of what is this going to cost me/my business/my organisation and not from a viewpoint of what is this going to cost society.
Sorry if this is beginning to sound a bit ALBF, but there are other ways of doing things and just maybe they are better.

So to take your trips to hospital to have surgery and then return later for the surgeon to remove them (OH has had a similar experience); in the UK surgeons are in such a treadmill that it is becoming a "15 minutes, you're done, next please." exercise. The only time a surgeon is likely to get follow up on a day surgery is when it goes wrong and the patient has to come back. Perhaps sometimes it is better if the surgeon gets to see his patient again (to remove the stitches ostensibly) and check that all is really OK (rather than the patient saying everything is fine). OH's experience was that her stitches were taken out by the local nurse, who, through lack of experience of the specifics, missed a couple of things when the stitches were removed. She did pick the problem up 3 visits later (a week) but by then a return to the surgeon was absolutely necessary and after the subsequent operations he made sure that he removed the stitches.

Regarding the nurse doing a round a visiting patients (and they don't visit all by any means), is it better that 20 patients each make a 5km journey to the nurse (total 200km travel overall) or that the nurse does a 100km round and takes them all in? And putting an accountant's hat on, in a country with 10% unemployment, how much does it matter if the nurses' time is not used optimally if the overall efficiency for the community as a whole is improved?

You say again that medical care is under strain in France and while finances are indeed under pressure, in terms of the practitioners I see much less evidence of strain than in the UK - there are some exceptions (for example ophthalmics) but by and large getting appointments and getting them quickly is the order of the day - at least round here.
Andy

A European Rahinja.
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Re: This is one for ablf

And again, overall I agree, and I take your points. However, the French health service costs. It has a massive deficit, just like the NHS, and France, I believe, still has one of the highest, if not the highest consumptions of drugs in both unit and value terms in the world. On some levels, that's costing society.
People in France go to the doctor's expecting to come out with a prescription for a plethora of drugs. If they don't, they feel somehow cheated. That's creating a perception that quantity equals quality.
I'm not specifically looking at the finances, (God knows, if you knew me you'd appreciate that with my mathematical aptitude that's the last thing I'd be analysing) although they are important. However, the financial cost has a direct impact on society, surely...if it's society that's footing the bill. And let's not lose sight of the extent to which society IS footing the bill in France. Healthcare is good, or perceived to be so, because people are paying through their salary deductions and top-up insurance for the service.
Individual practitioners may well not be under strain in the same way that UK GP's or hospital staff are. I just wonder how "expats" can be considered to be "contributing to the economy" of an area if they're largely retirees causing an increasing burden on healthcare and whilst their main contribution to the economy is spending a few quid occasionally in the local pizzeria and buying a baguette or three. They're not contributing a whole lot to society in their chosen place of residence. Most of their contribution has been made to the society from whence they originated.
I'm not waging an us-vs them war here. I see both the French and UK health systems as deeply flawed for very different reasons. I do tire of hearing from French-resident friends of "how marvellous" the treatment they receive in France is, compared to the UK..especially those who then conveniently overlook the horror stories they've told me about that very French system a few months before. The majority do seem to measure that marvellous treatment by the number and variety of drugs they've been prescribed, or the number of home visits, hospital stays and prescribed treatments by physios they've had. Theyre using resources. OK, they're paying for it, but they're chucking a few quid into a fund that's largely been financed by people who've been paying for it all their lives.
Yet, comparing apples with apples, my son and a young French friend both sustained exactly the same injury of the ACL within months of one another. The French lad had a major operation, was in plaster and on crutches for three months, and had thrice-weekly physio for a month. My son had weekly physio for six weeks with follow-up exercises to do at home on his own, then went back to see the surgeon who examined him and said that there was no need for an operation thanks to the assiduity with which the boy had done his physio, and they're both healed. Husband had a similar conversation with two French friends re. an Achilles injury. The two French blokes (father and son) both proudly showed off their twelve-inch operation scars. OH had no operation, much physio and rehab, and the results all round are the same. And as an aside, he was seen as a private patient in the UK.
We've all got our stories of why system A has served us better than system B....
Don't want to end up a cartoon in a cartoon graveyard.
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