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Re: Pads is confused again

 Loiseau wrote:
I think that's simply the imperative of the verb "s'en aller" isn't it? I stand to be corrected here, but I think the t' in va-t'en just comes from it being a reflexive verb, rather than being put there on purpose as the direct or indirect object. (Can't do emoticons in this browser, but would be doing a puzzled one here.) Angela

Bonsoir, guys

I just go off for the day and here you have all been discussing the order of pronouns!  I feel I have missed out somewhat.

Anyway, to begin at the beginning:  thank you, Angela for giving me the order of pronouns.  Thank you to you too, Pacha, and OH has confirmed that they no longer have those positions in football and that you are just giving away your age!Devil [6]  (sorry, I'm only repeating what he said!)

Then, I agree with Angela about va-t-en because I have a neighbour who was making a nuisance of himself and used to call round whenever OH was out.  Eventually, I said (OK then, shouted) allez vous en and, indeed, he doesn't call round anymore!

I had problems with things like "I haven't seen you for a long time, how are you?" and now I just learn whole phrases by heart and I say, "Je ne vous ai pas vue depuis longtemps!"

I am fortunate in that I have a very good ear and (usually) quite a good memory!Big Smile [:D]


Apprendre une langue, c'est faire un voyage différent chaque jour.
from Fle pour les curieux
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Re: Pads is confused again

 NormanH wrote:
Apparently 'moi' and 'toi' are replaced with' m' or 't' before 'en' and 'y' in a command, when they come after the verb...
So..Donnez-m'en
but it does feel odd, and I'm not sure I have ever heard it
Quite.  I didn't make this up - it's just what I was taught.  However, much as with English (sorry to bring up the "old country"  Norman!), it's useage (and abuseage) which counts.  Language evolves.
"I couldn't sleep very well last night. Some noisy b*ggers going around in automobiles kept me awake." Ken Miles
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Re: Pads is confused again

 Loiseau wrote:
I think that's simply the imperative of the verb "s'en aller" isn't it? I stand to be corrected here, but I think the t' in va-t'en just comes from it being a reflexive verb, rather than being put there on purpose as the direct or indirect object. (Can't do emoticons in this browser, but would be doing a puzzled one here.) Angela

Allez-vous-en!Devil [6]Smile [:)]


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Re: Pads is confused again



Geeked [geek]     Wink [;-)]


(Had to specially switch browser to do those!)





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Re: Pads is confused again

Thank you all for your examples, this one made me smile. - I don't have the time to explain it to you - Je n'ai pas le temps de te l'expliquer.

I am afraid that even with the examples the rule(s) still goes straight over the top of my head and if I try to construct a sentence using it I just get a mental blockage.

BUT!

I am hugely encouraged to realise that pretty much all the examples I have used and do use on a daily basis without error, just from absorbtion.

If I am aware that I have a problem with something then I become very self conscious and the problem gets much worse, the mental block again, ignorance can indeed be bliss and had enabled me to get thus far, I only recently started using "en" in speeech after hearing it all the time and gaining the confidence to use it in sentences, I cant say that I really thought about the construction of the sentences containing it, they just sort of started of their own accord.

Because I have so little daily social contact with people and virtually none at all during any school holidays I would say that 98% of my learning comes from watching the television, it amazes me when I analyse that I must sub-consciously block out what doesnt make sense to follow what does, for example a year ago I would have said I understand 100% of what I heard yet only recently did "en" make it through this filter to my consciousness, clearly it has always  been in the paroles.

It gives me confidence to know that aside from falling into habits of bad speech, and I do hear a lot around here, I will carry on learning by absorbtion, after all I dont know any of these rules in the English language (dont understand would be more accurate).


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Re: Pads is confused again

Chance, that is pretty much the point which I was trying to make to Pads at the bottom of page 2.  These rules,rhymes etc etc are actually b*g all use in conversation because by the time you've gone through them to get to the bit you want, it is too late.  

How do you get to Carnegie Hall?  "You've got to practice."  Using language is really the only way to learn to speak it naturally, especially if that's the way learning works for you.


"I couldn't sleep very well last night. Some noisy b*ggers going around in automobiles kept me awake." Ken Miles
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Re: Pads is confused again

Exactly. It's the way we learn our mother tongue, after all.
Young children start by banging out simple requests/orders: "Drink!" "More!" etc, and gradually progress to structured sentences.
It's just the same with picking up a foreign language by talking/listening to native-speakers.

Chancer, do you ever put the (French) subtitles on when watching French tv programmes? I often do that if it's something like a gangster mpovie, with lots of mumbled asides, and plenty of slang. It's surprising what words are in there, when you see them written down!

Angela
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Re: Pads is confused again

Chance, you are in good company because I, too, repeat what I hear and don't worry too much about the grammar.  Up to now, that is!

OTOH I am grateful to Norman for bringing up the rule that l'ordre est inversé à la 3e personne.  So:  Elle le lui explique, Nous les leur apportons and that "y" prècède "en" dans Il y en a.

So, I have even more reason to be grateful to Angela because her way of remembering the order of pronouns takes all of that into account as well!Big Smile [:D]Big Smile [:D]Big Smile [:D]


Apprendre une langue, c'est faire un voyage différent chaque jour.
from Fle pour les curieux
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