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Re: French prononciation of English names and places

Dans l’ensemble des pays francophones, on prononce plus ou moins à l’allemande le nom des célèbres pilotes de course. Le groupe sch de la première syllabe du nom se prononce comme le ch de chat et le groupe ch de la dernière syllabe se prononce approximativement comme un r très guttural. Il faut donc dire MI-KA-ÈL et RALF CHOU-MA-REUR.

This would appear to be definitive and bear out Frenchise case but for the possible caveat of "plus ou moins".


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Re: French prononciation of English names and places

 Chancer wrote:

comme un r très guttural.

Maybe that's the crux, n'est-ce pas?  Again, I think it's a difficulty with phonetic spelling because in English rr is not guteral in the least, is it?  In fact, English (unlike Welsh and Scots pronounciation and some regional accents like Northumbrian - as opposed to Geordie) is rarely guteral when spoken, is it?  Hence the English (but rarely the Scots) have such difficulty with the letter r in French.


"I couldn't sleep very well last night. Some noisy b*ggers going around in automobiles kept me awake." Ken Miles
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Re: French prononciation of English names and places

 Chancer wrote:
Dans l’ensemble des pays francophones, on prononce plus ou moins à l’allemande le nom des célèbres pilotes de course. Le groupe sch de la première syllabe du nom se prononce comme le ch de chat et le groupe ch de la dernière syllabe se prononce approximativement comme un r très guttural. Il faut donc dire MI-KA-ÈL et RALF CHOU-MA-REUR.

This would appear to be definitive and bear out Frenchie's case but for the possible caveat of "plus ou moins".

Chancer, I'm sorry but I think you've missed the point. 

You don't say where you found that quotation, but it was presumably written by a French person, and he's trying to describe a sound that doesn't naturally exist in French.  "Un R très guttural" is as close as he can get to describing it and also as close as most French people can get to pronouncing it, so he can't be blamed; but it's not accurate.

Look at the way he spells chou-ma-reur:  he seems to regard those two Rs as being about the same.  They are not.

If you can find a native German speaker, ask him to say some other word that includes both sounds (as an example, I offer you the town name Lörrach).  The "rr" and the "ch" are quite different sounds.  Most English speakers can hear the difference (which is why the Schumacher question was asked on this forum in the first place).  Some French speakers may not be able to hear it.

As for the German Michael: the "ch" is not pronounced like K.  Ask your German friend to demonstrate this when he's finished with Lörrach.  "Mi-ka-èl" is dead wrong (although it's right to show it as three syllables). 



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Re: French prononciation of English names and places

 cooperlola wrote:
In fact there are several different Germans on here and all pronounce the ch in a way far closer to ch as in the Scottish loch, than rr as in marrow.  Sorry, Regine, but I don't hear the double r sound once.

Why would anyone expect to hear it?  These are Germans - they know how to pronounce "ch" in any given German word.

The "rr" in Frenchie's post is a French person's attempt to represent a non-French sound.

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Re: French prononciation of English names and places

 allanb wrote:
Why would anyone expect to hear it? 
Because it's a video with a commentary in German .

Clearly I put my point very badly as in essence I agree with you.  My suspicion is that Frenchie is trying to convey the German pronounciation of ch (more akin to the Scots loch) and not the British way of pronouncing the nearest French phonetic spelling "rr" which to me is pronounced as in marrow but maybe not to her.  Thus I'm trying to find out from her whether her German friend pronounces it as in marrow or more like loch (as per the native Germans in the video.)


"I couldn't sleep very well last night. Some noisy b*ggers going around in automobiles kept me awake." Ken Miles
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Re: French prononciation of English names and places

AllanB, I am sure that I am missing the point as I just cant get my head around what you are saying, I had the same problem with the responses when I created the Schoumarrer thread, I think it may be to do with phonetic spelling and those odd characters which convey everything to my educated French friends but just serve to confuse me.

Accepting that for my education it doesnt matter how Michael likes his name pronouncing and accepting the ch becoming a K in Mikael its the marrer that is confusing the hell out of me.

I understand your example of Lorrach I think, but I think you are talking about the difference in "ash" or "ach" or "ack".

But how would a German pronounce the "acher" in Schumacher, or even some Germans (there may be regional differences) would it be with two r's as Cooperlolas example "marrow"?

If you can avoid those phonetic characters in your answer it may be advisable.


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Re: French prononciation of English names and places

 cooperlola wrote:

And here's a real German doing it!

http://www.myvideo.de/watch/5172736/Michael_Schumacher_Ein_Leben_am_Limit_Teil_5

(Sorry about the ads).  In fact there are several different Germans on here and all pronounce the ch in a way far closer to ch as in the Scottish loch, than rr as in marrow.  Sorry, Regine, but I don't hear the double r sound once.Sad [:(]

No, not the double ENGLISH R as in narrow !  an R  a bit like like Retard in French !


Life has a habit of biting you on the bum in ways that you least expect.............



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Re: French prononciation of English names and places

 cooperlola wrote:

, I think it's very difficult to convey sounds in print, thus there's always a chance that Frenchie's rr sounds like the German ch to her,

    Y E S    Big Smile [:D]

 


Life has a habit of biting you on the bum in ways that you least expect.............



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